Nick Altimore and Chris Tzitzis Interviews James Dooley Entrepreneur | SirLinksalot Interview
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What Does “Nick Altimore and Chris Tzitzis Interviews James Dooley Entrepreneur | SirLinksalot Interview” Talk About?
In this episode of the SirLinksalot podcast, hosts Chris Tzitzis and Nick Altimore sit down with James Dooley — CEO of PromoSEO, founder of FatRank, and self-described digital landlord managing over 600 websites — to get a rare, detailed look inside a full-scale rank-and-rent operation. James breaks down the entire progression from building and ranking a site, to generating leads on a cost-per-lead basis, to eventually transitioning clients into flat monthly rental agreements. He explains why the rank-and-rent model creates predictable recurring revenue, how he uses call tracking tools like Twilio and CallRail to maintain asset ownership, and how he deepens client relationships by incorporating real business details like photos, staff profiles, and local addresses to satisfy Google's E-E-A-T requirements.
The conversation goes deep into the operational infrastructure behind James's empire, including his portfolio of roughly 1,200 websites, a call center staffed with 90 to 120 people near Manchester and an overflow center in the Philippines, 118 documented SOPs, and a dedicated R&D testing team that continuously validates what actually works in SEO. James also reveals how he discovers profitable micro-niches — not through keyword tools, but through direct conversations with business owners — sharing vivid examples from roofing and plumbing that uncovered high-value, low-competition opportunities like disabled wet rooms and heritage slate roofing. The episode also addresses the ethical responsibilities of running a rank-and-rent business at scale, the threats posed by AI-driven search and algorithm updates, and how James has evolved away from black-hat tactics toward sustainable, long-term asset building.
“We've grown them from 2 vans to 25 vans. That's maybe 60+ staff on the road. If I suddenly switched off that site, that's 60 families potentially struggling to pay the mortgage.”
— James Dooley
Who Are the Guests on “Nick Altimore and Chris Tzitzis Interviews James Dooley Entrepreneur | SirLinksalot Interview”?
James Dooley is the CEO of PromoSEO and founder of FatRank, widely recognized in the SEO industry as one of the most prolific practitioners of the rank-and-rent model. With a portfolio of over 1,200 websites built across more than a decade, James has developed systems, teams, and frameworks that allow him to operate at a scale few can match. He has experience across highly competitive niches including casino and gambling, local lead generation, and national finance, and has built an in-house call center, apprenticeship pipeline, and R&D testing lab to support his operations. He is also a regular speaker at SEO events and an active participant in the global SEO community.
Chris Tzitzis and Nick Altimore are the co-hosts of the SirLinksalot podcast and the founders of SirLinksalot, a well-regarded link-building service with a strong presence in the SEO community through their Facebook group SEO Round Table and YouTube live streams. Nick has firsthand experience attempting rank-and-rent, which gives the interview a grounded, practical tone, while Chris brings curiosity and structure to the conversation, ensuring listeners at all experience levels can follow along.
What Are the Key Takeaways From “Nick Altimore and Chris Tzitzis Interviews James Dooley Entrepreneur | SirLinksalot Interview”?
Here are the key points discussed in this episode:
- The rank-and-rent model works best when you first prove value through cost-per-lead arrangements before transitioning clients to a predictable flat monthly fee, which benefits both parties.
- Profitable micro-niches like disabled wet rooms or heritage slate roofing cannot be found in keyword tools — they are discovered through direct, honest conversations with business owners about what makes them the most money.
- Maintaining control of phone numbers and website assets through call tracking solutions is critical to owning the rank-and-rent asset long-term, regardless of which client is currently renting it.
- Scaling a rank-and-rent empire depends heavily on tight SOPs, with James maintaining around 118 of them, and a team culture where former apprentices grow into directors who build their own mini-empires within the business.
- While AI-driven search poses a real threat to informational and display-ad-dependent sites, local commercial lead generation is expected to remain durable because people will always need real-world services fulfilled by real businesses.
“There's no secret knowledge bomb — it's doing all the right things properly, consistently. People hate that answer, but that's the truth.”
— James Dooley
Is “Nick Altimore and Chris Tzitzis Interviews James Dooley Entrepreneur | SirLinksalot Interview” Worth Listening To?
This episode stands out because James Dooley does not speak in generalities. He shares exact figures — 650 rank-and-rent deals, 118 SOPs, a 23-second callback KPI, deals ranging from £200 to £25,000 per month — and walks through the operational mechanics of running a business that most people only theorize about. Whether it is how he structures call center workflows in the Philippines, why he stopped using fake GMBs and moved fully white-hat, or how he finds niche opportunities by asking business owners what makes them the most money, every answer is grounded in real experience and real consequences.
Beyond the tactics, the episode offers something rarer: a candid look at the ethics and emotional weight of operating at this scale. James openly discusses the moral responsibility of having built businesses that now employ dozens of families, and why he turns down offers to poach clients even when it would mean more money. For anyone serious about building a sustainable SEO business rather than chasing short-term wins, this combination of operational depth and principled thinking makes the episode genuinely worth your time.
Who Should Listen to “Nick Altimore and Chris Tzitzis Interviews James Dooley Entrepreneur | SirLinksalot Interview”?
This episode is ideal for:
- SEO professionals who want to transition from client SEO into a more scalable, asset-based business model like rank and rent
- Beginner to intermediate digital marketers curious about how lead generation businesses actually operate at scale
- Entrepreneurs interested in local business growth, lead generation, and building recurring revenue systems
- Link builders and content strategists who want to understand how topical authority, E-E-A-T, and tiered link building fit into a complete SEO operation
Where Can You Listen to James Dooley Podcast?
You can listen to James Dooley Podcast on all major podcast platforms:
- Apple Podcasts – Search for “James Dooley Podcast” in the Podcasts app
- Spotify – Available on Spotify for free
- Amazon Music / Audible – Listen through your Amazon account
- Overcast – For iOS users who prefer a dedicated podcast app
- Pocket Casts – Cross-platform podcast player
You can also subscribe using the RSS feed: https://feeds.transistor.fm/james-dooley-podcast
What Are Listeners Saying About This Episode?
“I've listened to dozens of rank-and-rent episodes and most of them stay surface level. James actually explained the full progression from lead gen to flat rent to full brand integration on the site, and the part about using Twilio to keep control of phone numbers was something I had never thought about before. Genuinely one of the most practical SEO interviews I've come across.”
“The micro-niche discovery section alone was worth the listen. The disabled wet rooms example was such a clear illustration of why you have to talk to business owners rather than just pull data from Ahrefs. I've already started having different conversations with my clients because of this episode.”
“What I appreciated most was James being upfront about the ethical side of rank and rent — the bit about 60 families depending on a site staying live really hit home. It is refreshing to hear someone at that level talk about karma and doing the right thing instead of just optimizing for profit at every turn.”
Chris Tzitzis: All right everyone, welcome back to another SirLinksalot podcast. We’re here today with Mr. James Dooley. How are you doing today, sir? James Dooley: I’m all good, thank you very much. Chris Tzitzis: Awesome. And how are you doing today, Nick? Nick Altimore: I cannot complain. Pretty excited about getting to talk to the “party master of SEO” I’ve heard about for all these years. I’m also excited about meeting you out in Chiang Mai for sure, but thanks for being on the podcast — really excited about this. James Dooley: Yeah, it’s a pleasure to be on. I’ve followed you two guys and SirLinksalot for quite a long time. Chris Tzitzis: Awesome. So, if you’re unfamiliar with James Dooley: he’s the CEO of PromoSEO, the founder of FatRank, a self-proclaimed digital landlord with 600+ websites under management, and he’s had big success in the casino and gambling niches as well. You also might have seen him all over other podcasts recently — seems like you’ve been doing the rounds. Did I miss anything important there? James Dooley: No, you’ve got the majority of it. I own one or two other service-based businesses as well, but yeah, that’s the crux of what I do. And yeah — I’m a bit of a podcast slag at the moment. Chris Tzitzis: Love it. Glad to have you on. We wanted you here because we get a lot of questions in our Facebook group (SEO Round Table) and on our YouTube live streams about rank and rent. I believe Nick has a bit of experience with it from a while ago, and I have none. Nick? Nick Altimore: Yeah, I’ve tried rank and rent a few times and failed every single time, so it’s not my favourite model. I’m excited to hear some tips and tricks, and I know our viewers are too. What Is Rank & Rent? Chris Tzitzis: So, to start things off: can you briefly describe what rank and rent is? James Dooley: Rank and rent is where you: Build a website Rank it in Google Rent it out to a business that wants the leads You pick industries where, if you generated leads, someone would be willing to pay for them. Most people start with lead generation (charging per lead) and then later transition that into a rank and rent model. The big reason for moving to rank and rent is predictable income. With cost-per-lead, the revenue can go up and down, and it’s a lot more work to manage. Rank and rent gives you a flat monthly fee. How the Rent Part Works Chris Tzitzis: When someone “rents” a website, what does that actually mean in practice? James Dooley: At first, when you’re doing lead gen, it’s almost like client SEO. The client is constantly calling: “I got an enquiry but they didn’t answer, I’m not paying.” “I got a competitor as a lead, I’m not paying.” “The name is Mickey Mouse, I’m not paying.” Online, usually 10–20% of leads are: Unanswered Fake Spam (e.g. “Do you want to buy guest posts?”) So you need a sales/admin team to process and validate leads, refund bad ones, log everything — it becomes heavy operationally. Once a client has been with you a while and they’re used to, say, paying £5,000/month in leads, you can say: “Instead of paying per lead, why don’t you rent the site for £4,000/month flat?” They’re happy because it’s cheaper and they know it works. We’re happy because: We don’t need to validate every single lead We have predictable recurring revenue There’s less management and fewer arguments Phone Numbers, Tracking & Ownership Nick Altimore: So when they rent it, do you swap in their phone number and details on the site, or how does that work? James Dooley: We usually use a call tracking solution like Twilio, CallRail, or Invoco. We: Rent a local number (e.g. 0161 for Manchester) Forward that to the client’s office or mobile We generally don’t hard-code their own number into the site because if they stop working with us or go bust, we’d lose that number on all the citations and directories. Using a number we control maintains ownership of the asset. Once they’ve been with us for a while and trust is built, we’ll start: Using their address on the site Adding their photos, videos, and job examples Putting their staff on the “Meet the Team” page Linking to their LinkedIn / Twitter profiles So we tick E-E-A-T boxes: real people, real business, real location. And they get exclusive leads.
The Path: SEO → Lead Gen → Rank & Rent
Nick Altimore: So your basic process is: Rank a website Start doing lead gen (charging per lead) Then sweeten the deal and turn it into a rank & rent arrangement Then deepen the partnership and add their brand/personnel to the site Is that right? James Dooley: Exactly. You can’t usually go straight to “Hey, rent my site for £2,000/month” when they have no idea: What traffic you’re getting What type of enquiries you get How well they’ll convert Start with performance-based (per lead or % of job), prove the value, then move them over to a fixed rent lower than they were paying in total. It feels like a win for them and gives stability to you. Once trust is there, they start sharing the really juicy keywords and niches that make them big money. Finding Profitable Sub-Niches Chris Tzitzis: You mentioned those “juicy” keywords. Tools like Ahrefs or Semrush don’t reveal all these micro-niches. How do you actually find them? James Dooley: By talking to the business owner.
Example: you build a generic roofing site.
Soon you learn there isn’t just “roofing” — there’s: Flat roofing Pitched roofing Slate roofing Heritage roofing Biodiverse roofs Commercial vs residential, etc. One roofer might say: “We’re terrible at flat roofs, but we’re amazing at slate heritage roofs for churches.” Churches usually have good budgets, and this is a very specific, profitable niche. You won’t find that clearly just by sorting keywords by CPC in a tool.
Another example: plumbers and wet rooms.
One plumber paid us a big commission one month. I asked why. He said: “We did a wet room job.” I didn’t even know he did wet rooms. Then he explained: Most shower rooms are residential and lower ticket Wet rooms, especially disabled wet rooms, are often commercial (gyms, hotels, etc.) and pay more Disabled wet rooms also require specific regulations — wider doors, pull cords, etc. — which reduces competition That’s a high value micro-niche: “disabled wet rooms”. You won’t get that from keyword tools; you get it from proper conversations and asking: “What makes you the most money, and what are you best at?” Portfolio Size & Scale Chris Tzitzis: Can you give us a sense of your current portfolio and team size? James Dooley: We’ve built around 1,200 websites in total. Roughly 850 of those earn money in some way (lead gen, rank & rent, or display ads). Around 650 are on rank & rent deals. Deals can range from: £200–£300/month on small sites Up to £25,000/month or more on big ones Costs vary too: A smaller local site might cost £5,000 to rank A big national finance site might cost £200,000 to rank We’ve failed a lot over the years, but now local SEO for lead gen is pretty predictable if you: Build a technically solid site (fast, no errors, converts) Add strong E-E-A-T Build good content and topical clusters Build links If you skip one of those pillars, you’ll struggle. Link Building Approach Chris Tzitzis: Your link building method sounds similar to what we teach. Can you walk through it? James Dooley: Sure. We: Build good content and topical authority Use foundational links and citations to the homepage with branded and naked anchors Add some PBNs and guest posts to the homepage for power and relevance Push category pages and pillar pages with guest posts and niche edits Only later do we hit money pages directly with links, and we’re selective when we do We also like to: Treat guest posts as parasite pages — rank them for the same keywords as our money pages Build tier 2 links (mainly niche edits) to those guest posts to power them up Mention the author and link back to author / team profiles to support E-E-A-T There’s no secret “knowledge bomb” — it’s doing all the right things properly, consistently. People hate that answer, but that’s the truth. Call Center & Handling Volume Nick Altimore: Your model reminds me of where I started — a big rank-and-rent company with a large call center. What does your call center setup look like? James Dooley: We own our own call center. We don’t do cold calling We handle inbound leads and very fast follow-up KPIs: When a form is filled, we call back within 23 seconds For many niches, that speed means we’ve: Spoken to the lead Qualified them Sometimes even sent a quote …before any competitors have even replied. We’ve got: A main call center near Manchester (Wythenshawe / Levenshulme area) An overflow call center in the Philippines for night shifts 90–120 staff in the call center at any given time For some companies where I’m an investor, we even: Take the initial calls Do basic fact-finding Sometimes even handle the quoting process So we turn cold web leads into hot, qualified leads. GMB / GBP Strategy Chris Tzitzis: What about Google My Business / Google Business Profiles? James Dooley: Over the years, we’ve had tons of issues with fake GMBs: Mass-creating listings Verifying them Then losing them to suspension, usually just when they started to rank You end up spending loads on citations, photos, posts — then it all gets wiped. Some people even Photoshop documents to try to re-verify — that’s fraud, and Google has prosecuted people for it. So now: If the client has a GMB, we use and support their listing If they let us use their real address, we may create one legitimately We don’t fake addresses, forge docs, or mass-create spam GMBs I’ve moved very white-hat on that front because I want long-term, sustainable assets, not constant suspension risk and legal exposure. Finding Clients for Leads Nick Altimore: How do you find clients to sell leads to, especially at the beginning? James Dooley: Let’s say we build a roofing site. We then find every company spending money on roofing advertising: Google Ads (PPC) Yellow Pages premium listings Checkatrade Newspaper ads Radio ads Anyone already paying to get roofing jobs is a potential client. We contact them with: “We can send you roofing leads. You don’t pay upfront. When you win one of our leads, just add 5% to your quote and pay us that.” So: If it’s a £10,000 job, they quote £10,500 If they win it, they pay us £500 If they don’t win, they pay nothing When you send a lead to, say, 30 companies, the ones that consistently win the jobs are your best converters. You then: Focus more leads on them Build a deeper relationship Eventually pitch rank & rent or partnership/investment You’ll have to kiss a lot of frogs — many companies will complain or won’t track leads. But the ones who: Log every enquiry Track where it came from Track commission or margin …those are the ones worth building with. Ethics, Responsibility & Karma Nick Altimore: You’ve hinted at a big moral responsibility in your model. James Dooley: Yeah. For some clients: We’ve grown them from 2 vans to 25 vans That’s maybe 60+ staff on the road If I suddenly switched off that site, that’s 60 families potentially struggling to pay the mortgage. We also get competitors trying to poach the asset: “How much is Chris paying? I’ll pay you 20% more.” And I could earn more by switching them. But that’s not right. We built that business together. There may be no strict contract, but there’s a moral contract. My team also know: The right thing is not always the most profitable thing. I’m a big believer in karma. I hate seeing people screw others over just to make a quick buck. You might gain short term, but it comes back around. Threats & The Future of Rank & Rent Chris Tzitzis: Do you see any big problems ahead for the rank & rent model? James Dooley: There are always threats: Algorithm updates SGE / AI search Competitors overtaking you But that’s true for any SEO-based model: Affiliate E-commerce SaaS Lead gen Rank & rent Growth is never linear. It’s not a straight line — it’s peaks and troughs. If my site drops, Google still needs to rank something. So whoever replaces me must be better in some way. When that happens, I: Reverse engineer what they’ve done Adapt Work to overtake them again On SGE / AI: I think informational sites relying only on display ads are going to get hit hardest Many “how to” / low-intent queries will be answered directly in AI boxes But local, commercial lead gen will still be needed — people still need real-world services For high-traffic display sites, there are many more ways to monetize beyond just ads — affiliate, lead gen, email, retargeting, etc. I’m not losing sleep. Whatever changes, we’ll adapt — that’s what we’ve done for 12–13 years. Scaling & Systems Nick Altimore: Besides “work 23 hours a day”, what’s your real secret to scaling your rank & rent empire? James Dooley: First of all, I don’t work 23 hours a day now — I’ve got kids and want to be a great dad. My current structure: Up at 5 a.m., into the office 5–9 a.m.: deep work (no distractions)
Late morning: working with the team, middle managers, etc.
Midday: gym
Afternoons: family time — bike rides, time with the kids
The two biggest things that have allowed us to scale: Brilliant staff Most started as apprentices, with no experience Six former apprentices are now directors They’re building their own “mini empires” within the business Extremely tight SOPs We have around 118 SOPs Each one is step-by-step: keyword research, content briefs, link orders, domain buying, etc. We have two staff whose only job is to constantly improve and shorten SOPs If a video is 4 minutes and can be 90 seconds, we redo it Saving 30 seconds × 100 people × hundreds of views = huge time savings On top of that, we have a dedicated R&D testing team: They test everything — links, AI content, anchors, structures, etc. When someone says “PBNs are insane right now,” we test, we don’t just parrot it We’re always pushing the boundaries to see what still works I’m nothing without my team. My main role now is being a cultural architect: keeping everyone aligned, motivated, and doing things the right way. Wrapping Up Chris Tzitzis: That’s awesome. We’ve covered a lot. It’s been super educational for me and I’m sure for Nick too. What are your plans for the year? Are you extending the podcast circuit into a speaking circuit? James Dooley: I attend a lot of events and I love masterminds more than formal talks. I prefer: Interactive sessions Deep dives and open Q&A Adapting what I talk about to the level of the room I’m also building a personal brand because I think as AI grows, personal brands will become more important. I’m going to: Be more active on social media Do more podcasts Focus on short-form content over long-form videos I’m not really selling anything. I just like helping people and elevating others — even though, technically, I’m creating more competition for myself by talking about rank and rent. Nick Altimore: I’d highly advise anyone watching this not to go directly up against the famous James Dooley — he’ll probably whoop your ass. We’re looking forward to seeing you out at Chiang Mai. Where can people find you and follow along? James Dooley: The easiest place is JamesDooley.com — from there you can find all my socials: Twitter Instagram Facebook YouTube I’ll be a lot more active there going forward. Chris Tzitzis: Awesome. James, thanks for coming on. James Dooley: Cheers guys, see you in Chiang Mai. Nick Altimore: See you there.
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James Dooley is a UK entrepreneur.