Greg Elfrink Interviews James Dooley Entrepreneur | The Opportunity Podcast

Greg Elfrink: What’s up everyone, it’s Greg Elfrink, host of the Opportunity Podcast. Today I’m talking to a very, very cool dude—someone I’ve been friends with for around seven years. I first met him at the very first Chiang Mai SEO, but I already knew of him before that. He’s a bit of an under-the-radar legend in the SEO space. Any of my advanced SEO friends know him, but people newer to the industry might not. That man is my friend James Dooley. James is a wild businessman. He has over 800 rank-and-rent clients—just one part of the wealth engine he’s built. One thing I admire about him is that he’s incredible at building team culture. Many entrepreneurs struggle to keep high-level talent, but James makes it look easy. Another thing James does well—and something I think is a huge opportunity for marketers—is investing in businesses. Any expense his marketing company has, like backlinks or content, he eventually tries to invest in or buy the company providing that service. He mentions Search Eye, where he was spending $60,000 a month on links and eventually bought equity. He even does this with local lead-gen clients as well. This is a brilliant way for a marketer to build equity. Roland Frasier talked about consulting for equity on this podcast recently, and James is a great example of how to do it. He drives so many leads that companies grow from having two vans to 25 trucks on the road—and he’s able to get fantastic equity deals through that value. We didn’t get into every detail of that side, but whether it’s capital investment or consulting for equity, I think it’s brilliant and something many listeners could replicate. Near the end, we get into team building—something James absolutely nails and something most entrepreneurs don’t do well. Anyway, enough of me praising him—let’s get into it and meet the man, the myth, the legend. James Dooley: Hello everyone. Thanks for having me, Greg. We’ve known each other a long time now—over seven years. For those who don’t know me, I’ve been in the SEO industry for around 14 years. Our portfolio is diverse: rank-and-rent, affiliate, and investing in businesses we help scale. Many of the companies we generate leads for eventually bring us in as partners when their cash flow can’t handle the volume of enquiries we deliver. Everything stems from generating a consistent flow of quality enquiries. That’s how the rank-and-rent model started, and over time we added sales support in certain industries—like finance—where we sometimes generate 600 enquiries in a single day. Mortgage brokers can’t handle that volume, so we’ll pre-qualify leads first. But we only do that in industries where it’s financially viable. We also work in affiliate markets like casino, slots, and iGaming. Greg Elfrink: Before we dig deeper, tell me how you even got into SEO in the first place. What’s the origin story? James Dooley: I was a project manager by trade. Our family business installs playgrounds and sports pitches in the UK. We needed a consistent flow of inbound leads, because I was doing cold calls while also handling quotes and site work. We built our first website—but it didn’t rank. When we asked the designer why, he said, “I’m a web designer, not an SEO.” That was the moment. I said, “What is SEO?” At first we tried white-hat content. Then we learned about backlinks and blackhat techniques. Back then, everything worked—keyword stuffing, white text, any backlinks. Those were the glory days. But our first four years were full of failure. We were slow to adapt and surrounded by misinformation online. That’s why we eventually built an in-house testing and R&D team. Today, I don’t know anyone globally with a larger SEO testing team. We test every single day—break the SERPs, experiment across 650+ industries, and only trust what we can prove. We enter micro niches all the time. Some don’t monetize well, but they become testing sites for display ads or experiments. We fell into SEO by accident—building sites for our own business, then neighbouring niches, then suddenly realizing our external sites were making more money than the core company. Greg Elfrink: I love that. And yes, misinformation in SEO is still rampant. Tell me about how your R&D team works. How do you structure testing? James Dooley: We test on real sites—not single-variable test sites. If we believe something might work, we’ll test it on a site earning £10–15k a month and ranking for tens of thousands of keywords. We track via SEOTesting.com, but algorithm updates can skew data, so we look at long-term outcomes. We understand Google’s random ranking factor—where rankings fluctuate intentionally before settling. We test across multiple industries, comparing patterns—content tools, internal linking structures, backlink velocity, topical coverage. And we absolutely hate the “links vs content” argument. You need good technical foundations, good content, and good links. All three pillars. Anyone pushing only one pillar is usually just good at that one pillar. Greg Elfrink: Agreed. SEO gets over-complicated by people as they learn more. Let’s talk about your rank-and-rent model. How do you get clients and keep them? James Dooley: People over-complicate this. We built broad sites first—like full plumbing sites. Then we reached out to every business already paying for PPC, because they understand marketing value. We offer free leads with a kickback only if they close a job. No risk. 98% say yes. We start broad, then niche down based on what makes them the most profit—not just search volume. Profitability is the real data. We discover micro niches, build sites specifically for them, and watch clients grow. Some go from two vans to 25 vans because of us. The top 55 most profitable niches we work in? I wouldn’t have guessed a single one when I started. You only learn through doing it at scale. Greg Elfrink: How do you structure the initial large site? Is it like a directory? James Dooley: We start with large informational sites targeting zero-search-volume keywords—which actually drive huge traffic. Then we build niche directories. We scrape every Google Business Profile in the UK in that industry—pulling opening times, address, phone number, latest reviews. That forms the base of the directory listings. Businesses can upgrade listings with bios, images, videos, and we use their information as real E-E-A-T signals. Our rank-and-rent sites all list genuine businesses—we never fake details. It’s better for SEO, better for users, and better for conversions. Greg Elfrink:

Last question on the model: how do you handle pay-per-performance tracking? Many business owners are chaotic.

James Dooley: We send leads to 20–30 companies at first. Then we watch who actually converts by tracing the job outcome. That reveals honesty and ability. Most business owners pay—we rarely see fraud. But we do push back when someone tries to underpay. If they refuse fair compensation, we switch them off and redirect leads to their top competitor. That usually fixes things quickly. After trust builds, we often switch clients from pay-per-performance to a stable monthly recurring rent. It’s predictable for both sides. Greg Elfrink: Let’s switch gears. You often invest in companies you buy services from. Tell me about that. James Dooley: If our SEO company spends heavily with a provider—content, backlinks, anything—I want equity. We spent £60k a month with Search Eye. I eventually bought 50% of it. Now our quality is higher, and I benefit on both sides. For local lead-gen clients, some become nervous because their whole business relies on our leads. They ask us to take equity so they feel secure. We only join if we can also influence their operations and ensure fast lead follow-up via our call centre. Greg Elfrink: Now the big one—your team. You are world-class at team building. How? James Dooley: Best investment I’ve ever made is investing in people. Hiring “SEO gurus” never worked—they resist change. Algorithms change constantly; you can't teach old dogs new tricks. So we hire apprentices with no bad habits. We train them based on our data. My job now is cultural architect. I keep them happy, growing, and rewarded. Anyone who builds a successful new site inside the company gets 25% ownership of it, even though I fund the whole build. They grow assets alongside me. Money isn’t everything. Culture, growth, and shared success matter more. Greg Elfrink: That’s brilliant. Many entrepreneurs struggle to let employees have autonomy. How do they overcome that fear? James Dooley: A lot of entrepreneurs fear their staff will steal their processes because that’s what the entrepreneur themselves would’ve done early in their life. But you elevate people by giving them opportunity. If someone leaves to do their own thing, that’s fine. But culture keeps people. Purpose keeps people. Chasing money alone leads to emptiness, even when people sell businesses for tens of millions. The journey matters. Greg Elfrink: All right—three rapid-fire questions. What’s the biggest hidden SEO opportunity right now? James Dooley: Parasite SEO—quick wins published on high-authority sites, backed by tier-2 backlinks. It’s working extremely well right now. Greg Elfrink: Best tools for entrepreneurs to improve their SEO? James Dooley: Screaming Frog, MarketMuse, Surfer SEO, AutoBlogging, SEMrush, Ahrefs—all the basics, used properly. Greg Elfrink: Funniest SEO moment? James Dooley: We had a major site tank. Everyone panicked—R&D team, consultants, everyone. Turns out Kasra Dash accidentally set the site to no-index because he thought he was on a staging server. We spent days diagnosing it. Total chaos—and totally hilarious afterwards.