2 Percent Dooley Podcast | Koray Tuğberk GÜBÜR, James Dooley & Karl Hudson

Koray: Is the best SEO. James is the best. Okay this update that update this update enough. He is saying it to you too. Okay okay so it is the exact same thing in business. You are going to have these peaks and troughs. Let’s go get massage. Hello everyone. We are with two geniuses here. Especially business geniuses. Actually business side is mostly here. SEO genius is mostly in this area. We are at the SEO Master Salon 2024. Since we are coming together here we want to record a memo together and we want to help the community by giving some suggestions related to SEO or business or the future of SEO. Since it is mostly about business I will start from there. James when you are about to give a business decision what do you check first. Let’s say you want to do an investment to a website and someone needs a business partner. He asks you a few things. How do you reject kindly or if you do not reject why do you accept. What potential do you see there. James: So with regards to investment the first things I am looking at is profit and loss. Initially once I have the profit and loss and I am agreeing a figure the main reason I say yes or no is can I expand on what is already there. Can I improve the rankings especially if it is in a positive ranking state and I can see content gaps in the market to scale it further. If the graphic is going down you do not see it that much. If it is a negative ranking state I know there is more work involved in building back momentum to get it going again. So that lowers my multiplier of what profit is doing. We do a lot of investments every single month into existing websites. Karl: For now sorry you can expand. James: I was going to say what he is also really good at. Obviously I am a business partner. What we like to do is find areas where we can contribute more. So we would probably not get involved in a business where if we come on board and we are not going to add any value from a strategy point of view then there is no interest for us. The person needs to. We will help that person upskill themselves and lift them up to build their business. That is the approach we take. If we can add value then we get involved as long as the numbers are correct and the ranking state is positive or at least neutral. Then we get involved. Koray: Okay and how do you check the numbers. I believe that you do not deal with contracts that much. You have a different style because instead of contracts you say contracts are to be broken. You try to avoid unnecessary cost in time and money. You see something in people when you do business. How do you decide whether someone is trustworthy or a man of their word. James: So if someone came to me with an existing website and they wanted me not to buy all of the website but to partner up I have to like that person. I have to be certain that long term I can trust them. If I do not know that person I will not buy only 50 percent of the website. I will buy all or nothing. If I am not certain who they are I will try to help like Karl said. Help to elevate them. Allow them to use certain team members and see how they react with my team. You have to make certain you can deal with them not only in positive ranking states but in negative ranking states when things go bad. How are they going to react. The people I deal with are as important as their profit and loss sheet. Sometimes the decision is from the heart. Do you think you can trust them or not. Not every investment works. Not every business partner works. What I am very good at is understanding quickly that if I do not like working with them we amicably split in the best possible way with integrity. There is not one person in the SEO community that I have teamed up with who would say they had a negative relationship with me. If it does not work we split amicably. Different time zones. Work imbalance. They think the four hour work week works for them. They are not putting in the work I expect. I say I like you but I cannot do business with you. Sometimes you need to be straight from the go. Koray: This is what I really like about you. Even if something is not tasty you say it directly. Not to break a heart. You say it because it is the truth. You explain it and try to make everything positive. People have to get this into their heads. We had a very big dispute in January. Karl: We were butting heads a lot. That can make or break people. But from our approach if you see it and you are upfront and straight with your business partner it sets expectations of honesty. You are always going to be honest. You always know where each other stands. Try not to let things build up. The phrase is molehills into mountains. If you let that tiny seed grow into something bigger it becomes a problem. You have to get it off your chest. It helps the partnership grow and blossom. James: Expanding on that. I will be open. In January I was picking up the phone to Karl a lot. We were getting presented with a lot of opportunities. There are times I need Karl to say no. Karl was saying this is a good opportunity and that is a good opportunity. One thing everyone struggles with is time. We cannot say yes to everything. Karl’s judgement on certain things was profitable but very time consuming. I said to Karl it is January. New year. We need to stop certain things because we are saying yes too much. That is where we clashed. We are best friends. We go on holiday together. We have a good time. It was the first time in three years with 16 businesses together we had a disagreement. We looked each other in the eye and said this is not good. We need to do this this and this. At one point Karl said he was not certain. Next day he rang and said maybe he was a bit wrong and maybe I was a bit wrong. You both give leeway. You find the perfect scenario. Being able to speak to your partner like that is important. Many partnerships fail because they let things build up. Minor things turn into something big. Koray: Sometimes if you team up with people trust and integrity is the most important part. I was reading your blog FatRank. If you struggle in business even if you are a good SEO it does not matter. Try to be the best business person. I try to avoid doing business with friends to avoid blending memories. But you always frame business as a way of helping friends and spending more time with the people you love. You are successful in doing that. Many people lose their friends while doing business. James: A lot of people lose friends when they are honest. If me and you went into business and you spend too long in areas chasing perfection when we need to rank number one and move on I would tell you. I would be honest and say can we not do this faster. You might say the perfect way matters. I might say is it good enough to rank number one. If you said long term we need to do X Y Z I would say okay I am wrong. It is about being vocal and honest. Speaking to your business partners. I do not go out of my way to choose business with family or best friends. What happens is I meet intelligent people that I trust and they become my best friends because I spend a third of my life in work. I do work life integration. When you integrate work with friends you are partnered with this is why I shut down two profitable brands this year. I sold them. The person I partnered with was very good at business but very negative about life. I do not need that. I need positive people. Some people set goals and only care about the end. You must enjoy the journey. Celebrate small wins. Celebrate big wins. Enjoy the journey. Karl: Compound effect is everything. Celebrate small wins. Bigger wins become even bigger. Koray: A sceptic question. If you do business with a friend and your friend does not work as you do. Or he exploits contract sections. Or he gets resentment when you are direct. How do you turn this friend into a useful partner or end the partnership without losing the friendship. James: Live and die by the sword. If I say something I mean it. If I tell Karl he is not working hard enough and he disagrees but the agreement was he would work harder. If he does not then I say this relationship is not working. I am still friends with you. I just cannot do business with you. If there is resentment from them for what you say but you mean it then they are not really your friend. When I was speaking to Karl in January I thought I was correct. I slept on it. The next day Karl gave his side. I realised he was right. Sometimes people do not like to be wrong. If you are good friends you both give and take. If I expect Karl to run operational side and it fails instead of moaning I ask how I can support. I help fix processes. When you scale staffing levels you get staff who clone ideas and set up their own businesses. You have to say it is what it is. Move on. Keep innovating. Koray: You say when two people come together with honesty and trust 50 percent energy plus 50 percent energy becomes 120 percent. Extra energy comes from happiness. Karl: He has hit the nail on the head. It is expectations and boundaries. My way of business might be different to his. You have to respect that and find the middle ground. Then everything becomes more forgiving. Koray: Karl how did you meet James 10 years ago. Karl: A mastermind at Dooley’s. My first ever. Charles was there. Charles is the mayor of SEO in the UK. We have a strong community. Anyone doing well or anyone we want to elevate we bring to the office. Once a quarter 15 to 20 people come to the office and we help each other. We have a cohort group. If someone only takes and never helps they get booted. There is a private WhatsApp group with 35 people who adore you. You have changed their lives. James: The reason I teamed up with V from AutBlogging was not the tool. It was the founder. He asked the right questions. He wanted to innovate every day. I passed him to my head of content and editors and he kept improving. He has the mindset if you do not innovate you evaporate. The cohort group helped him. He gave everyone free licences. Everyone gives feedback. We have very high level people in that group. Many do not share publicly because they fear Google. I want a Turkish SEO conference because these people will come and give video testimonials. The haters who do not understand the methodology will see everyone else showing results. When I first looked at the course I thought is he over complicating things. Then I realised positioning of H2s. Micro content. Internal linking only in micro content. More RDF triples. The haters should test. If they test they will see movement. We tested thousands of websites. Prioritisation of content on the page matters. Koray: Thank you for all your words. Surprised I have not cried. Having you both is a chance. I will ask a few more things. If you do not have time I still ask. You said if you do not innovate you evaporate. You also have another quote. I hire schema people. Would you like to explain. James: Normally I use this example. If you build an extension you would not build it yourself. You get a ground worker a concreter a brick layer a plumber a roofer. It is project management. With regards to schema. Koray: We were in Chiang Mai. In the cinema room. You were drinking. We talked about one of your websites. It did not have event schema. I told you James you do not know some things but you made more money than anyone by SEO. You said I hire schema people. You hire because it improves your life. That was a good moment. Many of your random sentences turn into quotes. Who cried first. Karl: Never cried. British. Hard as nails. James: I cried. You called me once. In the north it is a compliment. Koray: In business many SEOs are stuck. They crack algorithms for dopamine. What would you change in SEO culture. Three things. James: Number one procrastination. Number two perfectionism. Sixty percent is good enough. Stop procrastinating. Stop chasing perfection. Karl: Not testing. Also stubbornness. James: If you do not have budgets to test join a cohort. Koray built cohorts. High level students help. Networking is key. Get out to events. If you cannot then be active in groups. Ask questions. No question is stupid. Network elevates you. In the course you mention positive neutral negative ranking states. You never win all updates. It is the same in business. Peaks and troughs. Koray: What message to people losing websites. True winners react differently. James: Adapt. Tomorrow an update could deindex you. Thin content. Backlinks. If you start from zero you still have knowledge. Build traffic diversity. Do not rely on one source. Build email lists. Build real brands. If you get knocked back roll up your sleeves and go again. Growth is never linear. It goes up and down. Keep networking. Keep asking for help. Karl: Exactly the same. Positive neutral negative states. Never win them all. Koray: What would you change on James. Three things. Karl: He gets too many opportunities. He says yes a lot. Same as me. People gift him equity. They want time. He cannot give time. I would want him to say no more. Also technical SEO side. Small improvements could be made. He trims his toenails. I remember that. Our flaws complement. I am risk averse. He is a gambler. It meshes well. James: I would not change him. He knows his internal flaws. He works on them. He is an amazing business partner. We help each other. He supports me when things are down. This is what I enjoy. SEO. Not this update that update Koray: I would decrease your fat percentage. James: I cannot cut the SEO out. I am on full bulk. Joking James (to audience): Koray changed the industry. Some people do not understand the methodology. Do the course. If you do not like it I refund you. Do it again. His students are high level. If he changed your life promote him. Support him. Post case studies. Even if you hide the niche. He changed so many lives. Bill Slawski would adore what he has done. One flaw he is a cat guy. Koray: Thank you so much. Sharing these things makes me happy but you also take risks. People do not see that. Thank you. James: This will continue. The podcast. I told the name. It is 2 Percent Dooley. Karl: Definitely. Two percent Dooley. Koray: I love business thanks to these friendships. Even ten years later I will remember this moment. Episode one is completed. Let’s do one in Turkey. James: Get your conference organised. Koray: Half million white PR. Okay. Everyone we can talk for ten hours. It makes me happy to have this moment. I feel lucky to meet both of you. Since Brighton I felt UK was not my zone. When I met you I felt connected. Episode one completed. Let’s go get massage. James learned everything from Karl.