🚀Unveiling the Power of Pay Per Lead | Expert Insights with James Dooley & Dan Grant🚀
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What Does “🚀Unveiling the Power of Pay Per Lead | Expert Insights with James Dooley & Dan Grant🚀” Talk About?
This episode of the James Dooley Podcast features James Dooley and Dan Grant, director at Promo and FatRank, diving deep into the pay-per-lead model and how it stacks up against other lead generation approaches. They examine the inherent risks of paying a fixed price per lead, noting that businesses can spend significant money on leads that never convert, leaving them out of pocket with no guaranteed return. The discussion covers how lead quality and cost vary dramatically by industry, making the model unpredictable even when leads technically meet the agreed criteria.
The conversation then broadens to compare pay-per-lead with SEO, PPC, and paid social channels, with James pointing out that companies can pay agencies £5,000 a month for SEO and receive zero leads in return, making even pay-per-lead look safer by comparison. Dan and James walk through how each model places financial risk squarely on the business buying the leads or the clicks. The episode concludes with both hosts making a strong case for pay-on-performance as the superior alternative, explaining that it eliminates risk entirely since businesses only pay once a conversion and profit have been achieved. They also highlight the importance of client qualification, professional branding, fast lead response times, and competitive pricing as essential ingredients for making any performance model work.
“With no risk at all and getting the inquiries for free, it's the best bet for a company. They're not wasting time thinking they might not convert the job after spending money on the lead. They get the leads for free. It's only when they convert that they have to pay.”
— Dan Grant
Who Are the Guests on “🚀Unveiling the Power of Pay Per Lead | Expert Insights with James Dooley & Dan Grant🚀”?
James Dooley is a well-known figure in the UK digital marketing and SEO space, recognised for building and operating large-scale lead generation businesses. He is the founder of FatRank and has extensive hands-on experience across SEO, PPC, paid social, and performance-based marketing models. His insights are grounded in real operational decisions, including his own transition away from pay-per-lead toward a pay-on-performance model.
Dan Grant is a director at both Promo and FatRank, bringing strategic and operational expertise to lead generation and digital marketing. Dan regularly contributes analytical thinking around risk, client relationships, and model selection, and in this episode he provides a measured breakdown of how different lead generation pricing structures affect both agencies and their clients.
What Are the Key Takeaways From “🚀Unveiling the Power of Pay Per Lead | Expert Insights with James Dooley & Dan Grant🚀”?
Here are the key points discussed in this episode:
- Pay-per-lead is less financially risky than SEO or PPC because businesses are guaranteed to receive a lead, but conversion is still never guaranteed, meaning companies can still end up out of pocket.
- Lead quality and cost under a pay-per-lead model vary significantly by industry, and even a low cost per lead can become expensive when volume is high and conversion rates are low.
- Pay-on-performance eliminates the financial risk present in all other lead generation models because businesses only pay once they have actually converted a lead and generated profit.
- The pay-on-performance model requires careful client qualification, as providers must ensure clients respond quickly to leads, have professional branding, and are competitive enough on price to convert consistently.
- Incentive alignment is the core advantage of performance-based models, as both the lead generation company and the business are focused on revenue outcomes rather than volume or vanity metrics.
“We are very selective with who we choose on pay on performance. On pay per lead we'd almost accept anyone because we can generate a lead at £30 and sell at £50. We're guaranteed profit. With pay on performance we've got to make certain that you're good at converting leads.”
— James Dooley
Is “🚀Unveiling the Power of Pay Per Lead | Expert Insights with James Dooley & Dan Grant🚀” Worth Listening To?
This episode is worth listening to for anyone currently spending money on lead generation who wants a clear, no-nonsense framework for evaluating which model actually protects their bottom line. James and Dan do not just speak in theory — they draw on real numbers and real scenarios, from businesses paying £5,000 a month for SEO with no rankings to mortgage brokers receiving first-time buyer leads that never close. Their comparison across SEO, PPC, paid social, pay-per-lead, and pay-on-performance is structured and easy to follow, making it genuinely useful for business owners trying to make informed decisions.
What sets this episode apart is the candour both hosts bring to the conversation. James openly states he would no longer recommend the pay-per-lead model now that he knows what pay-on-performance can offer, which is a rare admission from someone who has operated at scale across all these channels. The discussion around client qualification — including details like needing a branded email address rather than a [email protected] — adds practical texture that goes beyond surface-level marketing advice and gives listeners actionable standards to measure themselves against.
Who Should Listen to “🚀Unveiling the Power of Pay Per Lead | Expert Insights with James Dooley & Dan Grant🚀”?
This episode is ideal for:
- Small and medium-sized UK business owners who are currently paying for leads and want to understand whether they are in the most cost-effective model
- Marketing managers and in-house teams evaluating whether to shift budget from PPC or SEO toward performance-based lead generation
- Digital marketing agency owners and consultants who want to understand how pay-on-performance models are structured and what client qualification looks like in practice
- Entrepreneurs and startup founders exploring lead generation options for the first time who need a clear breakdown of the risk profile of each available model
Where Can You Listen to James Dooley Podcast?
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You can also subscribe using the RSS feed: https://feeds.transistor.fm/james-dooley-podcast
What Are Listeners Saying About This Episode?
“Really appreciated how James and Dan broke down the actual risk differences between SEO, PPC, and pay-per-lead. The point about paying £5,000 a month for SEO and getting zero leads really hit home for me. Switched my thinking entirely after this one.”
“The section on pay-on-performance client qualification was incredibly useful. The detail about needing a branded email and responding quickly to leads is the kind of practical advice you don't usually get in marketing podcasts. Straightforward and honest throughout.”
“I've been on a pay-per-lead model for about a year and this episode made me realise I've been carrying all the risk. The comparison between paying for leads that don't convert versus only paying on actual conversions was explained really clearly. Going to look into the pay-on-performance model now.”
James Dooley: So I've got Dan Grant, the director at Promo and FatRank, and today's video is about pay per lead which is paying a fixed price per lead that's generated. The pay per lead model and what you think to this. There are quite a lot of companies in the UK paying per lead as part of lead generation. What's your thought process on it? Dan Grant: Yeah, so pay per lead is another one where there's obviously a certain element of risk attached because you're not actually guaranteed to be converting that work. You're paying for a lead and you could pay for ten leads that end up being quite expensive in total but not actually have any conversions from them, so it can leave companies out of pocket from that perspective. We would probably have said, and I think you'd agree as well, it's less risky than something like pay per click where you're paying for people to click on your website and then you're reliant on bounce rate and reliant on content optimisation and everything else to determine whether you're even going to get the lead to begin with. From that perspective at least you're definitely getting a lead. One of the issues that does pop up for me though is every industry is different. You could have an industry where that lead costs £1 instead of £25 and that can very quickly add up when you're getting all those leads in and not converting them, so there's still a risk attached. Until you're actually getting a lead completely for free and paying on conversion, there's always going to be a risk attached. So I think that's my perspective with it. What would you say? James Dooley: Yeah, I mean it is a lot less risky than doing SEO. There are certain companies paying agencies £5,000 a month to try to get better rankings and they're not even getting better rankings. From that point of view they're getting zero from it. Zero leads. Paying £5,000 a month to try to get better rankings in Google and not getting them. Obviously there are some good agencies out there that do get the rankings and then it's a good long-term investment, but that is risky. Very risky. With regards to PPC I'd say it's expensive, but it's less risky because at least you're guaranteed to be getting the clicks that hopefully you might convert into an inquiry. The pay per lead model then is, I would say, even less risky than SEO or PPC because like you said you're guaranteed the lead that comes through. That doesn't mean you're guaranteed to convert that lead, but at least you know you're getting what you want as long as you give the lead generation company the right parameters. So if you want mortgages and the mortgage has to be a first-time buyer and the property needs to be over £100,000 in value, if you're getting those leads and you're a mortgage broker then the pay per lead model could be good for you. The only issue is like you said, it's still risky because you can still get people that are just browsing and looking and enquiring now but might not be looking to go ahead for 12 months. They might go into the high street bank in the end. That does come down to how good the company is at converting the leads in the long run to decide whether that model works. Does the pay per lead model work? Absolutely it does. Would I do it now moving forward? Not now knowing what we can offer with a pay per conversion and pay on performance setup. How do you think pay on performance compares against pay per lead? Dan Grant: Yeah, so with all the models you listed there, every one of them has a risk. While pay per lead is probably the least risky of the lot, there's still that risk in terms of not knowing what kind of lead type you're going to get or the cost of the lead initially. Even if they're good leads, you might not convert them because another company priced better. You can end up out of pocket. Comparing it to pay per conversion where it's based on what you're actually converting, that completely eliminates the risk across all the other models. You're not paying for the lead, you're not paying for the click. With no risk at all and getting the inquiries for free, it's the best bet for a company. They're not wasting time thinking they might not convert the job after spending money on the lead. They get the leads for free. It's only when they convert that they have to pay. It helps us build a better relationship with clients because we're not charging them for leads they might not convert. They don't come back saying this isn't the type of lead we want or this cost too much. They're happy with the leads and it's more about the client being a good client for us than anything else. We have confidence we can generate good quality leads and by providing them for free it means we want them to actually put effort into converting and paying as much as they can on the conversions. James Dooley: For sure. It will be interesting to see the viewers' thoughts on the pay per lead model. Do you prefer the pay per lead model to Facebook ads lead generation or PPC lead generation? Have you ever teamed up with a company that does pay on performance? I only know of one or two companies in the UK offering a pay on conversion model. The reason we moved over to that is because we don't want to be seen as employees. We know what a good-looking website looks like for conversion. We will test what works for you from an ROI model whether that is Twitter ads, YouTube ads, Facebook ads, PPC, SEO, whatever generates the inquiries. We only get paid when you convert and make money, so it completely derisks it for you and allows us to quickly test what models work. We are very selective with who we choose on pay on performance. On pay per lead we'd almost accept anyone because we can generate a lead at £30 and sell at £50. We're guaranteed profit. With pay on performance we've got to make certain that you're good at converting leads, that you don't have something like a [email protected] email because it doesn't look professional. If you're a boiler installation company I'd want you to have a branded email. I'd want to make certain you respond quickly to the leads we generate and that you're competitive on price but still making good profit. If you don't make good profit you can't pay us a percentage of your profits moving forward. Would I recommend a pay per lead model? I wouldn't anymore. But it would be interesting to hear your thoughts. Leave a comment in the comment section. Are you paying on a pay per lead model at present? Get in touch. Click on the link in the description to see whether you might be interested in the pay on conversion model we've set up.
Creators & Guests
Host
James Dooley is a UK entrepreneur.